The Path to Clues: Exploring Animal Autopsies with Dr. Watson
Dr. Watson opens the doors to her world of pathology, sharing the intricacies of animal autopsies and the crucial role they play in understanding diseases, toxicities, and even crimes involving animals. Join us for a captivating journey into the realm of veterinary forensics.
What You’ll Learn:
Gain insights into the fascinating world of veterinary pathology and how it differs from clinical veterinary practice.
Discover the essential role veterinary pathologists play in solving mysteries related to animal health, diseases, and causes of death.
Learn about the process of animal autopsies (necropsies) and why they are conducted, including their significance in understanding illnesses and toxicities.
Understand the nuances of forensic pathology in the context of animal crime investigations, neglect cases, and more.
Explore the various species Dr. Watson works with, from dogs and cats to exotic animals like black rhinos and white tigers.
Hear about Dr. Watson's experiences working on farms, conducting necropsies on livestock, and helping farmers address herd health issues.
Gain insights into the importance of safety protocols when conducting necropsies and how pathologists protect themselves and others from potential hazards.
Learn about the potential for establishing an animal crime facility within a university setting to educate future criminologists and improve animal welfare.
Get a glimpse into Dr. Watson's journey to becoming a veterinary pathologist and her passion for teaching and sharing knowledge.
Explore the valuable collaboration between pathologists and veterinarians and how it enhances the understanding of complex cases in animal medicine.
Ideas Worth Sharing:
"I'm not a clinician. I'm a diagnostician. It's a unique world, it's a different world, but I think it's a necessary one." - Dr. Watson
"Nowadays, I tell people that there's way more of a possibility that you're going to get an answer versus 10 years ago when I was like, you're probably never gonna get an answer to this." - Dr. Tyler Sugerman
Learn more about Dr. Watson by visiting her website:
Watch On YouTube:
Read The Transcript:
Dr. Sugerman: [00:00:00] Hey everybody. Welcome back to Vetsplanation. I have a amazing guest with me today so I am going to give you just a little caveat, so in case you do have any kids that are going to be listening to this, I know my kids listen to this all the time, but if you do have kids listening to this, you may want to listen to this first before you have them listen to this just in case. We are going to be talking about necropsies, and we'll talk about what that is here in just a minute but it does deal with a lot of, unfortunately, death, and so I do want to make sure that if anybody's sensitive to this, you may want to skip this one.
Otherwise, this is very informative, so I do feel like everybody should really listen to this. But, this is Dr. Watson, she's from Ledgerock Pathology, and she's going to be talking to us about what necropsies are. Welcome. Thank you so much for coming onto the show.
Dr. Watson: Absolutely. Lots of fun. I'm very excited.
Dr. Sugerman: So let's start out with just what is a necropsy in the first place?
Dr. Watson: Yeah, so that's the biggest question and it's mostly terminology that people are confused about. I tend to tell people, most folks, it's animal autopsies. A lot of people understand the terminology autopsy, they don't understand the terminology [00:01:00] necropsy.
Boiling down the terminology, an autopsy means auto means self so a self examination. So a human being is autopsying or looking at another human being. Necropsy is just pretty much anybody or anything looking at another object or anything.
Dr. Sugerman: Like another species.
Dr. Watson: Another species, yeah. There is an inclination now in veterinary pathology to actually start using the terminology autopsy. Mostly because that's what people know.
Dr. Sugerman: Yeah.
Dr. Watson: So I still tend to lean to, when I'm speaking to people who, non-veterinary folk. I still use terminology, animal autopsy.
I say, I don't say autopsy, I say animal autopsy. So they understand those two terms together.
Dr. Sugerman: Yeah, that makes a lot more sense, because I feel like when I say necropsy, most people do not understand what I'm saying?
Dr. Watson: Even in the veterinary world, people don't understand that
Dr. Sugerman: Very true. Yeah.
Dr. Watson: It's one of those specialties that folks when you're in a group of 130 vet students there's maybe one of us mm-hmm.
that choose to go into pathology.
Dr. Sugerman: Yeah.
Dr. Watson: And[00:02:00] from there, even. You're pursuing necropsies or autopsies, animal autopsies, it's still very unique. Even most pathologists that are out there still don't do autopsies or animal autopsies.
Dr. Sugerman: And then can you tell us like what the differences between me as an emergency veterinarian and you as a pathologist means?
Dr. Watson: Yeah. So I did the same thing as you and everybody else. I did the vet school. And then I did an additional three years of education, so there's a lot of folk in our veterinary world that tend to go into emergency or go into, if they're going to specialize, they go into surgery or dentistry, but pathology is an option and pathology is just the study of disease, basic terminology. And, looking at that, it's pretty much understanding the disease as it affects multiple species. Instead of what you do and other folks do where they look at the animal and the species and then try to figure out the disease.
Dr. Sugerman: Yeah.
Dr. Watson: Where I'm on the other end, where I look at it a little differently, where I look at the disease process. And then [00:03:00] equate it to whatever species that I'm looking at.
Dr. Sugerman: Okay.
Dr. Watson: So it can be, for example, influenza. Influenza in a human can be influenza in a mink, influenza in a chicken, cow, dog, cat.
They all look the same.
Dr. Sugerman: Yeah.
Dr. Watson: Influenza. That's not the same with other species and other infections and other diseases and other species. So that's basic what I tell people about pathology most of the time.
Dr. Sugerman: And like you were saying, not all pathologists then go on to do necropsies and stuff, right?
So what do other pathologists do?
Dr. Watson: Yeah, so the options for us are, teaching at a university level. There's also working for a large diagnostic company, so IDEXX, Antec h, Zoetis, and there's a few other ones. There's folks that go into research, which is what I do part time. And the research is, I used to work at Fred Hutch.
But it's also looking at trying to help advance medicine by utilizing research species; rats, mice, type of thing.
Dr. Sugerman: Yeah [00:04:00]
Dr. Watson: There's very very very very few of us. I'm one of 14 in the world that focus on forensics.
Dr. Sugerman: Did you have to do extra schooling or anything for that. To do forensics?
Dr. Watson: You can now. Not in pathology.
There's a master's degree program out of University of Florida. But what I did is I actually worked with a human medical examiner and a forensic human anthropologist. And a lot of my education came from him and the human forensic anthropologist. So you can do extra education, but I did not.
So once I applied for kind of certification in forensics that background was enough for the certification to happen. But there's only two of us on the west coast that do this.
Dr. Sugerman: It's very specialized.
Dr. Watson: It's very, very specialized, very, very specialized. And there's a huge demand for it.
Dr. Sugerman: Yeah.
Dr. Watson: What I do is very unique, meaning I [00:05:00] travel to different places to do necropsies. Whereas most of the time people either send the animal or the tissue to a large facility like a university or Antech or IDEXX and have the animal autopsied there. There's many problems with that. That people do not like to address because by the time it gets to the pathologist, it's been a few days.
Dr. Sugerman: You can't really keep them at the right temperatures that you need.
Dr. Watson: Sure. And that's a huge, huge thing. That's very, very important.
Dr. Sugerman: Sure. Especially for forensics.
Dr. Watson: Especially for forensics. Absolutely. Absolutely. There's a lot of different things that we can look at from different things that affect the body.
To collection of blood for laboratory examination that's really critical, very critical, urine, that kind of stuff. So yeah, it's, there's many options they are a little bit more limited than saying, just working as an ER doctor or working as a general vet, but I'm very happy with what I do, I love it, but I think that [00:06:00] there's, I did diagnostic work, which is looking at biopsies for years.
I just I still do it for friends and I still do it for some small companies that I work for. But it's not my passion,
Dr. Sugerman: Yeah.
Dr. Watson: I looked at enough mast cell tumors.
Dr. Sugerman: Just looking at a microscope a lot does not sound too much fun to me, but I'm sure I know there are other veterinarians who love it.
Dr. Watson: I do. I do. I do actually like it a lot. I, I do. But looking at biopsies all the time is just, it's. It's tedious.
Dr. Sugerman: Yeah. Yeah. I can see. Well, I'm going to utilize you next time you come in. And I'm like, can you look at this real quick for me?
Dr. Watson: Sure. I mean, I, I, like I said, I still do. I still do biopsies. Yeah.
A lot for first one of the major companies. Yeah.
Dr. Sugerman: So I know you do a lot of forensic stuff, but with a pet parent in general, like they have a pet that comes in and they want to decide, they want to know what happened to their pet. What is the process for them?
Dr. Watson: So let me take a little bit of step back.
So most of my clients come from either. You folks, some veterinarians who want to know answers [00:07:00] themselves. From clients and, individually that say, I don't know what happened to my pet or, Fluffy just died at home. What did Fluffy die of? Or, from the state, from animal control officers, police officers, sometimes lawyers.
So that's where my collection of cases usually come from. And for that specific type of case, if it's an owner that's very interested in understanding what happened, whether it's a lot of times people hold a lot of guilt thinking they did something wrong, or they're looking for answers, further answers. The way that works is, there's one or two ways.
If the animal passed at home, then you can bring it into your local hospital, like you folks, and you can ask for a necropsy or an animal autopsy and either somebody can give me a call, send me an email. My name is getting out there a little bit more and don't mark it so much because it's a little bit of just you, just me.
And so from there what I do [00:08:00] is I actually come to the hospital. There's very little that I need from the folks in the hospital. I tend to try to go during times where it's not so busy. Then it really, a few towels and a little bit of information in regards to the background history of the animal.
And that's pretty much it, there's not too much, the owners are allowed to do whatever they want in regards to aftercare and that can be...
Dr. Sugerman: Which is really nice. I know that that was a big problem for when we had to send out our necropsies. They wouldn't get their ashes back or, couldn't bury them at home.
So I do think that's a really nice thing that you're able to give them their pet back to do whatever they want with their remains.
Dr. Watson: And that was one of the major issues that I've heard. That is a very consistent issue throughout every place that I go is the animal aftercare. And so that allows the aftercare to stay within the facility that the owner chooses.
And so that there's never... Typically any mess ups in regards to communication errors. I've sent my animal here. What are we going to do here? And so that has been very, very [00:09:00] important. Of course, it's very important for me. It's very important for the veterinarian, the facility that the owner brings it to.
Because that, aftercare is, you really want to know, where Fluffy has gone. Absolutely. Yeah, so that's typically the process that I walk through when it comes to an animal that's either passed away at a veterinary hospital or passed away at home. And it's usually an email or text and that's, that's pretty much it.
And I come right to the facility. I try to make the process simple. I try to make it easy. I try to make it convenient because I know how tough these conversations are. I know how challenging it is for the veterinary hospital, the veterinary staff, the veterinarian, and communications with an owner. We've all had the unfortunate circumstances where we've all lost a pet.
And so I think we all know how hard it is. So I try to be very sensitive to that and understand that these things are challenging and make it a very simple [00:10:00] process. That's been my goal.
Dr. Sugerman: Yeah, which I think we've definitely seen at the clinic, which is really nice.
Dr. Watson: Yeah, I try to not be too invasive into other processes that folks are going on.
I know how a veterinary hospital works. We've all been doing this for years. And so I know, mornings are important time for folks. So I tend not to do them in the morning. Yeah. Understanding and being a little more compassionate to veterinarians, veterinary staff, and clients.
Dr. Sugerman: And then when you do your necropsy, like what, what things are you able to see right then and there?
Dr. Watson: Very good question. If it's just an animal that passed away and the owner isn't interested in a forensic examination for whatever means they need to. We call it a gross examination, but ultimately what I do call it as a macroscopic examination.
So it's an examination with your eyes. So it's not using a microscope, it's not using ultrasound, it's not using x rays. So it's an examination with your eyes and what you do is you take a look at all the organs of the [00:11:00] body and you take a look at the organs in the body and how the organs actually affect the whole animal.
And then you do diagnoses per organ. And so there's a lot of things that you can really see on examination. It's mostly pattern, pattern recognition. It's mostly color changes. It is a direction. It is a direction. It can point you into an area. So colors, white or tan are usually, fibrosis or scarring.
Or necrosis. That's usually our only limitations there. However, if you see it in one species versus other, you can think about other diseases such as lymphoma or cancers. But yeah, it's usually a lot of pattern recognition. There's a lot of technicians that are very, very good at macroscopic or gross examinations or autopsies.
And from there I take very small samples of the tissue and have the tissue processed and put on glass slides, and then I do the next step, and the next step would be to look at it [00:12:00] under the microscope. And so then I put that whole picture together. So it's looking at what I see with my eyes, taking that information, documenting it, making images, and then taking the information from what I see on the glass slides.
Now, if you do it long enough, you can say, hey, this is what I'm seeing here, and this is X disease. So it's pattern recognition. It's not always the case. Because once I get the glass slide, sometimes that's where the magic happens, and that's where I see, Oh, okay, now I understand. Now I understand the colors that were changing in that, that organ.
Now I understand why the clinical signs or clinical symptoms were X, Y, and Z. Now I understand why the blood work looked like this. And so it's, it's also a way for advancing veterinary medicine. We need this to understand how these diseases work. So that's typically what I see on a animal [00:13:00] autopsy.
It does get a little more detailed when we're talking about a forensic exam. So in that, I'm looking for a lot of different things everything from the pattern of the blood to the measurements to the a lot of other things.
Dr. Sugerman: Very detailed, it sounds like.
Dr. Watson: Very, very detailed. It's very detailed. And those reports become very detailed. Those are five or six pages long. They're legal reports, so they have to have certain information. The images have to be a specific type of image. So if they go into the court of law, they have to be a certain setup... for them to be allowed into a court of law.
Dr. Sugerman: Okay, they have like very specific requirements for all of those things it sounds like.
Dr. Watson: Yeah, you know there's a group called the International Association of Forensic F S A Association something like that. Science Association. It's a veterinary association that is really specifically honing in on the forensics aspect.
It's a kind of [00:14:00] a growing group. It's not a big group. But they are actually saying, if you're going to do a forensic examination, what needs to be in the pathology report, what needs to be in the images, what needs to be given to a lawyer. That kind of information. So there is a small guidelines that is developing and I'm still on the cusp of that with all the other folks that are doing this.
Dr. Sugerman: And what makes it a forensic, for those that don't know, what makes it a forensic exam versus a non forensic exam?
Dr. Watson: What I typically tell folks is I get a lot of those questions from the veterinary hospitals that I visit. And they say, how do we know which one, which exam that you're going to do?
And it comes to legal action. And if there's any kind of pursuit of legal action in, whatever scenario that means, then that immediately puts it into the forensic. Now sometimes that doesn't, some folks don't know they want to pursue that action until two to three weeks later.
And so then, things have to be changed [00:15:00] in my reports and whatnot. But when it comes to actually me doing the necropsy, me doing the animal autopsy, it is a little bit different. I'm not looking for disease. However, saying that there is some defense lawyers that will say, Oh, Dr. Watson, we know we saw your report. We saw your gross exam. We saw your microscopic exam. How do you know that finding wasn't from an infectious disease? And that's when I can say, Oh let me do the testing. And so we have ancillary testing that's available to us to make sure that there's no secondary, tertiary infectious diseases in that animal, in that tissue. But when I'm actually doing the animal autopsy itself.
There has to be strict rules in regards to measurements. The images have to be of the exact area. They can't be a far away area.
Dr. Sugerman: Very zoomed in.
Dr. Watson: Very zoomed in. The image has to be very specific to what the potential cause was. [00:16:00] Sometimes in toxicity cases, that means making sure you document different effects of the liver or how the liver looks.
In cases such as neglect and starvation cases, means making sure you take pictures of the stomach contents. Making sure that you take pictures of the contents of the intestine. Because that can reflect, oh, time period of when the animal ate or didn't eat or was it offered food.
I usually cater my animal autopsy or the necropsy based on what the information is being told to me. However, like all of us in veterinary world, we don't use that. We use that potentially as a guidelines. We don't necessarily say that that is exactly what's going on because I have to be a neutral party.
I can't be a party that is focused on the vet side, on the legal side, I have to be be a very neutral party. So my information is very dry, it's very trying to be very conclusive and very specific. So the report's a little bit [00:17:00] different, I write a forensic report than a regular autopsy report.
But that's typically the difference if we're talking in generalities. It is very case specific. Because if a veterinarian comes to me and the owner is requesting a forensic versus an animal control officers versus a police officers. What I do ask is what is the question they want to answer?
What is the question they want to answer? Sometimes I've had people say, Oh, we just want bullet retrieval. Okay, great. That's the question here. We can give you that answer. Most of the times it's just, what's the cause of death? For those, I specifically ask, what is it that you're looking For?
What is your, what is your desire here? Sometimes people don't know.
Dr. Sugerman: I know a lot of people who do bring in their pets think that it's because of a neighbor that poisoned them or they usually want those kinds of answers. I feel like for a lot of the owners that bring them in and say that they want a necropsy, I was thinking too, you had mentioned [00:18:00] about toxicities and things as well.
When I'd say 10 years ago, I was starting to do necropsies for people when they just wanted to know. I would always talk to them about the fact that I could only diagnose based off of something I could physically see, without doing any other testing, but there's so much more testing that you can do now, which is still cool.
Like nowadays, I tell people that there's way more of a possibility that you're going to get an answer versus 10 years ago when I was like, you're probably never gonna get an answer to this.
Dr. Watson: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I specifically use a couple of the more progressive veterinary laboratories that are very interested in, in learning more about toxicities. So folks that have a veterinary toxicologists on staff is pretty important. Most not, definitely not all veterinary diagnostic labs, can do a certain number of, the test is called a GCMS test. A lot of places only do a select number of toxins.
The places that I [00:19:00] go to, the veterinary specific places, can do about 2000, +/-. I do also use a human forensic laboratory. The human forensic laboratory is called NMS. NMS, I can do all kinds of drugs a lot of people which don't know, and you've seen a lot of this, that dogs get Into owner's medications.
Dr. Sugerman: Constantly. Yes.
Dr. Watson: All the time, yeah. And so that even our, our veterinary diagnostic laboratories cannot do a lot of testing on human drugs. The human forensic lab that I use called NMS. It can do pages and pages of testing, everything from illicit drugs to Benadryl.
Dr. Sugerman: I remember seeing Benadryl on your list.
Dr. Watson: Benadryl, oh yeah, to Benadryl. So we have the capabilities of doing that and that can be either anti-mortem testing or post-mortem testing. Now of course in my world everything is post mortem.
Because my, [00:20:00] because I don't practice clinical medicine. And I think that's a good point, because a lot of people get confused about that, is I'm not a clinician. I, you don't bring me your live animal, and I don't do what you do in diagnosing, and give it meds and drugs and testing and surgery.
You really don't want me to do that. I'm more of what they call a diagnostician. My clients are you folks. My clients are veterinarians. My clients typically are people interested in doing more than just the basic testing. That is a big question a lot of people talk to me about.
I say, I'm not a clinician. Even veterinary folk don't understand that. I'm not. I'm a diagnostician. It's a unique world, it's a different world, but I think it's a necessary one, and I'm trying to carve out a pathway that a lot of people aren't doing now. And I think it's a very much needed one, at least in my three years now experience doing this.
Dr. Sugerman: Absolutely, especially with forensics, like you're saying, just two on the west coast.
Dr. Watson: Yep, there's [00:21:00] two of us.
Dr. Sugerman: Do you travel to other places like Oregon and stuff as well, or do you pretty much stay in Washington?
Dr. Watson: For right now, I'm in Washington. I had my first case from Colorado not too long ago. I would.
I definitely would. There's other criminal, animal criminal investigators that I work with that are interested in having me go with them to other places. There is a little bit of stipulation in regards to that because I'm still under, have to work under my license.
Dr. Sugerman: Which our licenses are all state by state, usually.
Dr. Watson: State by state, yeah. It wouldn't be too hard, I think I could probably end up doing it, figuring it out. Because you know you can work underneath somebody who has a license. It's a possibility. I do have multiple state licenses. But I haven't done a lot of outside work. But I'm very suspicious that's going to change.
I did go to the IVFSA conference, the Veterinary Forensic Conference this year and
Dr. Sugerman: Just 14 of you.
Dr. Watson: Yeah, [00:22:00] right. I think a total about 40 of us where they're like, we need you, we need you, we need you. I am giving a lot of lectures now. I have a lecture scheduled with Seattle University with their law school.
I give a lot of animal control officer lectures. I gave one that was four hours probably 6 months ago. They are bumping it up to 6 hours.
They're very interested in in lesion identification. Forensic lesion identification. And if folks don't understand what a lesion is, it's anything that's abnormal on the body. It's just the way that I used to teach it to vet students.
So it's a little bit terminology specific, but yes, it is, it is getting bigger. I'm not really marketing, but my name is getting out there. I've done a couple on the islands now. So we'll see what happens. I now [00:23:00] potentially may be employing somebody else. So we'll see.
Dr. Sugerman: Very cool.
Dr. Watson: We'll see about that.
I'm very excited. I love what I do. I love being a pathologist. I love helping clients and veterinarians find answers. Even specialists who oftentimes, you can work up a case to the n'th power and, that's it. That's exactly what it is. I just literally had a case like that and I was like, nope.
Nope. It wasn't what It is. And it's a very, very rare disease in cats. For those of you who want to know, it's, it was a feline podocellular carcinoma, which is very rare. And it was a very challenging case for them and it was a challenging case for me, because it's, there's, what, two papers out there in regards to...
Dr. Sugerman: Challenging for the owners, because it's not really on our radar for that's what it was,
Dr. Watson: Sure, sure. Yeah. I love it. I love what I do. I'm very happy. I'm glad I chose pathology. It fits me very well and it is different. . Yeah.
Dr. Sugerman: It's different. It's very [00:24:00] different. It's very different from my world, that's for sure.
Like I talk about how general practice is very different from my world, but that it's very different from my world.
Dr. Watson: Yeah. When I, when I go to, when I go to a hospital and t typically I get a small group of people that gather around and I was like, please come and watch and let's ask questions, talk, let's talk about this.
A lot of it is, I look at things differently than you do, and a clinician does. I look at things... We both come to the same conclusion, but you're looking at it and how the treatment's options, and what you're given, the information you're given, and I look at it as, what is the story being told to me by this animal, what I'm seeing, and does that match the information that you gave me?
Versus me taking your information and saying, this is what it is. Now, most of the time that's how it goes, because most people do a great job. But I look at things differently, so [00:25:00] when I have questions or people asking me questions, that's when I stop them and say, I don't look at it that way, this is how I look at this.
I'm looking at what this animal is telling me here, and I, I, I see this information here. And then I say, Oh that fits the picture that you were seeing. Or no, that doesn't fit that picture. And this is why I think it doesn't fit that picture, and I, and I think that's a, that's a question I get a lot, too.
Dr. Sugerman: Yeah, but I also think it's really great that you do stop and do that, and teach everybody, what you're seeing, and, let everybody come around and look if they want to, and talk about it, because I know that that has helped me identify things later on, like I've texted you about before, just being like, I saw this lesion, and I recognized it because you showed this to me.
But I wouldn't have done, I wouldn't have known that before, you know.
Dr. Watson: Yeah, one of the things I try to tell clinicians is that animal autopsies can really advance your medicine. Now with the time frame and the busyness, it's not always possible.[00:26:00] And I understand that, and I, and I would hope that, that folks...
and I think that offers a lot of easy education if you see these colors, if you see these changes, this is what I think and then, how do you treat that clinically? And I can't help you with that.
Dr. Sugerman: Yeah, that's okay.
Dr. Watson: Yeah, somebody was telling me, oh, I gave this, I was treating this cat and I gave it X, Y, and Z drug and I looked at her and I go,
Dr. Sugerman: What is that?
Dr. Watson: I looked at her and said, I don't know what that is. And I said, and we laughed. And I was like, I'm so far down pathology route. I there's some pathologists that still remember doses. I think the only thing I remember is my Pred dose.
Dr. Sugerman: I think that's ingrained into you for boards.
Dr. Watson: Yeah. So it, it is entertaining on that aspect. But when people ask me questions, like clinical aspects, [00:27:00] I can only give so much. I can only input so much on treatment options. I can say this was present. There is edema in the lungs, how would you treat that or how would you consider that?
And so I like to think of it as more collaboration of understanding because again, you come out of it with a perspective and I come out of it out with a different perspective. Hopefully, ultimately, their goal is to give the best medicine we can. And I, I do think that that is a possibility. I would love for more people to take me up on that option.
Because I can sit and talk about pathology for hours, as you can tell. And I like pathology, but there is a lot of aspects of this that I think people can still learn. We all learned a lot of it in vet school, but...
Dr. Sugerman: Such a short period of time, though, too. I think my pathology rotation was 2 weeks...
Two weeks, most of them are. Yeah, that's about it. And so I learned how to do a gross necropsy.[00:28:00] But that was about it.
Dr. Watson: Sure. And if you're seeing intricate cases that are, been on IV fluids or if they've been on all kinds of medications or they have all kinds of signs or symptoms that come in to see you, then that is where both of our knowledge can come together and piece that out.
Yes, you're taught what a mangiosarcoma looks like, yes, you're taught basic information because I used to teach that. But, and I, but we don't get those cases. General practitioners, emergency folks, specialists, we don't get those cases. We get complicated cases. And knowing that, that I can look at an organ or a tissue and say, yes, that is from X, Y, and Z administration, or this is not.
Or, you know what? This is, this is from the disease process. So yeah, I, I, I would love, I'm very much an educator at heart. I'm still a professor at heart. I'm still a teacher at heart. I come from a family of teachers, so I [00:29:00] do love to teach. I love to teach pathology. People don't always like to teach, listen.
But I would really love for people to take me up more on that. Yeah, for sure. Because I think it helps in all aspects of clinical medicine and diagnostic medicine.
Dr. Sugerman: Absolutely. We talked a lot about pet parents and stuff like that, but, so that kind of usually makes me think just dogs and cats, but do you do animals beyond dogs and cats?
Dr. Watson: Yeah. So I, I tend to stick to the mammals. I have done reptiles and birds. My knowledge base on those diseases is not as good as other folks, other pathologists that have exotic experience. I do. I do cows, horses, goats, sheep. I haven't done any big, large animals.
Dr. Sugerman: Zoo animal type species.
Dr. Watson: Yeah, again, I stick typically to the mammals.
Yep, yep. I've done a white tiger. I've done [00:30:00] two black rhinos.
Dr. Sugerman: I imagine you're like literally having to crawl inside them.
Dr. Watson: Yeah. If you take out a heart of a horse, it's about almost 50 pounds in your
Dr. Sugerman: Jeez.
Dr. Watson: Yeah. So I have pathology friends that have done beached whales and you're in there.
Yeah, trying to take out the lungs when you only take this much tissue. So yeah, it's, those species are great. I love to get out onto a farm and look at, help a farmer understand why, a certain percentage of herd are dying.
Dr. Sugerman: Do you go out to those farmers? Like we go out to their pastures?
Dr. Watson: Yeah, I would. Yeah. Yep. I'm doing necropsies here on the farm. Yeah. There is some things that you have to be very, very aware of your surroundings. It's just like a
Dr. Sugerman: Try not to do it by the road.
Dr. Watson: Yeah. It's just like a veterinary large animal vet that goes to a farm. Things you have to be careful of.
Obviously the safety of everybody around you is utmost importance. Disease processes. There is some diseases like anthrax that is still [00:31:00] around. It'll be still around. It is very important for me to know who's around, who's there. Are there children on the farm? Are they running around on the farm?
Are there different species that are mixed together? So there's a little more questioning and details that, that I tend to ask and make sure that safety is my kind of first regards, because there's a lot of things that we can get from large animal species. We can get stuff from small animals, but it's not as prevalent.
There's only one thing that I, in the forensic side, that is exceptionally dangerous on autopsy. And it's a toxin that people use to try to hurt other humans and other animals. And if the gas is released during necropsy, then it's deadly. And I've only seen one of those cases in,
Dr. Sugerman: Is that a mole bait?
Dr. Watson: No. It's strychnine, strict nine. It releases a specific type of gas.
Dr. Sugerman: They use it for moles.
Dr. Watson: [00:32:00] Yeah. But there's, there's also another one, and I can, can't remember the name of it. I'd have to look it up real quick. But it's the gas that's produced in the stomach and the intestines. If it's released, usually what you have to do is zip tie the stomach and the intestines, remove them, and don't even, even open them up, or you have to open them up in advance.
Dr. Sugerman: Like outside or something.
Dr. Watson: I wouldn't even do that.
Dr. Sugerman: We talk about like with anybody who comes in with, if they're worried about a mole bait toxicity that they have to tell us that we have to make the dog vomit like outside in order to do it.
Dr. Watson: Oh yeah. Yeah. That's a great idea. Yeah. So nobody gets exposed to it. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. There is some things, in large animal species I worry about salmonella. I've been tested multiple times for that. When we did a lot of infectious diseases of avian influenza. We have to wear the full, mask and hood and everything with a ventilator attached. And, six hours you're sweating inside of there.
Dr. Sugerman: Ugh, that sounds terrible. Yeah.
Dr. Watson: But, ultimately the goal is for safety, public safety and other species being safe.
Dr. Sugerman: Absolutely.
Dr. Watson: And that's typically done within a university setting versus me going around to [00:33:00] different facilities.
Although, saying that, if I went to somewhere and I thought it was a reportable disease, or a disease that were required as veterinarians to report to the state or state veterinarian. Then the weight of a pathologist holds a lot more weight to make a phone call versus a general veterinarian.
Dr. Sugerman: Absolutely.
Dr. Watson: There's things that I think about and they're not, they're not that common. Thankfully. The things that you think about when you go to a farm or you go to a facility and otherwise they're not as, they're not a huge concern. But yeah, there's nuances to pretty much everything.
And a lot of times we just don't typically have to think about those weird oddities. Although I do see the weird stuff.
Dr. Sugerman: Exactly. Yeah,
Dr. Watson: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, there's a lot of information that can be gained. It's just a matter of what we do with that information. I had one... Especially a friend of mine who is an oncologist say to me, you know, you, pathologist, you need to write more papers.
And [00:34:00] that's absolutely true. It's absolutely, absolutely true. We need to write more papers. Because we have a ton of material that needs to get out there. Saying that, I've got a couple that I'm, I'm potentially, If I get a little bit more information, then I'm going to be writing a few more papers.
I will have to say the other thing that's on my list or my docket is I put in a proposal with a couple other animal criminologists to start a animal crime facility here.
Dr. Sugerman: That's very cool.
Dr. Watson: At one of the colleges. Yeah, I won't say exactly who it is just yet because it's not gone through. But it's going to be with their criminology program.
And so we'll see how that works out. But I think it's going to be a very, very good program to start criminology students getting involved into animal crimes. 'Cause it is one of those things that happens a lot, but it's not a lot of things that is, holds a lot of legal weight. And it is the next step for [00:35:00] people to do it to another human.
So it usually happens to an animal first and then it happens person.
Dr. Sugerman: That's a good way to hopefully break that. That chain.
Dr. Watson: That chain, yeah. And so a lot of this is when it comes to the forensics side, I should say. A lot of it is getting the information out there. And that is also our responsibility as pathologists.
But since there's only two of us on the West coast.
It's not a lot. But it's happening. We'll see what happens with that, but that's, fingers crossed and then I'll probably be recruiting a lot of people to come and teach and talk, and talk about diseases, and yeah, that's an exciting new adventure.
Yeah, I'm looking forward to that. There's only one, maybe two big programs in the United States they're not even associated with a criminology program, they're associated with a veterinary hospital, which is great. But having it associated with a criminology program would be fantastic.
Dr. Sugerman: Yeah, because usually those are the people that see these things first, and then it comes into a veterinary hospital.
If it even comes into a [00:36:00] veterinary hospital.
Dr. Watson: Sure, and then, or like a situation that happened at the hospital that you're at is that It was questioned, it was like, I think this is what's going on, and then the background information actually did say, yes, this was, and then the animal autopsy or the necropsy did support both of those theories.
And having a clinician understand what's going on or understanding at least some basic forensic. This is what happens when this is what you should see when you know this scenario happens. This is what you should see with this scenario and just starting with the basics I would love to get that information out there because then we'd be able to get a lot more people put behind bars.
Dr. Sugerman: Yeah, absolutely, which all of our pet lovers, you know would want as well.
Sure.
Dr. Watson: Absolutely. Absolutely. That's where I'm at. My goal is education, is to bring it out there, bring the information to folks who really are like us boots on the ground. Want to make a change, want to make a difference type of stuff. [00:37:00] Yeah. So we'll see, I'll keep you updated.
Dr. Sugerman: Yes, exactly. Do you have anything else that you want to share?
Dr. Watson: No, I think we covered a lot of questions that I get typically. There's usually, what is it that you do? How can we have you at our facility?
Dr. Sugerman: Yeah, which reminds me, can you tell people like how to contact you?
Dr. Watson: Yeah, so my email is LedgerockVetPath@gmail.com. One word and then that path, it's all one word L E D G E R O C K vet path @ gmail.com.
Dr. Sugerman: And we'll link to that too.
Dr. Watson: Yeah. So that's probably the easiest way to get ahold of me. I do allow animal control officers and veterinarians to take my personal cell phone and contact me, text me, email.
I don't tend to give that out to the general, but it's out there too. You can find it, trust me. Yeah, that is the easiest way to contact me. Either that or contact, folks [00:38:00] that have utilized me, different facilities.
Dr. Sugerman: Absolutely.
Dr. Watson: Is also another way to get ahold of me.
Dr. Sugerman: Perfect. And then I, so I usually do some sort of animal story or something at the end of all of these.
So my, my question to you is, how did you decide that you were going to be a veterinary pathologist in the first place?
Dr. Watson: Oh, that's a great question. So I wanted to be an oncologist. So I sat there and I was in vet school and I was sitting into the microscope. And it was looking at the intestines of a puppy that had parvo.
And of course, being a technician for years, you know the clinical signs, the clinical symptoms of parvo. You know where the dog's in isolation. You know why they're in isolation. You know they're sloughing intestinal mucosa. But I sat there under the microscope and I go, Oh my God, this all makes sense now.
This all makes sense. And I had the oncologist that I was working for, he's like. You're going to be a pathologist. [00:39:00] No way, no way. I'm going to be an oncologist, no way. Because I had, learned like linear accelerator and I was focusing on that and I was like, you're so right. You're so right.
I liked putting a slide under a microscope and, that's the answer.
Dr. Sugerman: Just clicks.
Dr. Watson: That's the answer. And I'm a visual learner so if you look at all my vet school notes, it's all drawings and colors and stuff and mnemonics, silly mnemonics It was an easy transition for me.
That was the reason I went to Pathology. It just came easy to me.
Dr. Sugerman: Yeah. Good Awesome. Thank you again, Dr. Watson.
Dr. Watson: Thank you.
Dr. Sugerman: I really appreciate you being on here.
Dr. Watson: Absolutely.
Dr. Sugerman: Hopefully we'll have you on again for some other topics then.
Dr. Watson: Sure. Yeah. Anytime. Love it.
Dr. Sugerman: All right. Thanks. Thank you everybody.
Dr. Watson: Thank you.